Your blog here reminds me of several years ago when doctors were trying to definitely diagnose a complex auto-immune disease I was suffering with. The "best" diagnosis for me didn't work that well because of some big differences between my symptoms and typical symptoms. The specialist deadpanned, "These darn autoimmune diseases have such nerve! How dare they not conform to the boxes we have created for them."
Wow. Just wow. Loved every word of this blog. Your sound and thoughtful reflections in both Jesus and John Wayne and this post gives me courage to stand firm in my faith even when it seems to go against the Christian mainstream. Thank you for your good and encouraging work.
"Seems" is important here--what if we are in fact the Christian mainstream, but our voices don't always get platformed in the same way as the gatekeepers?
What a tremendous article. This quote sums it up so well. "Placing their trust in their own articulations of their own truths, they have taken upon themselves the ceaseless task of defending every last card they’ve propped up lest a single one be nudged out of place. Enter Beth Moore, whose understanding of her faith rests not on a stack of cards she’s assembled, but rather on her sense of the Spirit of a living God, a Spirit that blows in ways that sooner or later will dismantle every last man-made house of cards." Thank you!
Such a great discussion. Our tendency to think in black and white, in or out, all or nothing positions really does not foster nuanced conversations that may actually forge connections with each other. It takes way more energy and attention to live in the liminal/ grey spaces. Personally, I like the idea of not boxing myself in completely. I admire your ability to speak into those populations and spaces that get people (including me) thinking. Thank you
This is so well stated. Thank you! For many years I was a Calvinist. It was very important for me to be "right." First Moody, then TEDS, then the pastor of an urban church for 33 years. In the 90s I started reading Dallas Willard. His life and thought began to change me. The the growing arrogance of TGC, et al, just did me in. Finally the moral failings on the "top" pastors left me grieving deeply. Now, I am not a Calvinist. I am not a complementarian. And there are other things i am not. I am a committed follower of Jesus Christ and continue to learn of Him.
Just today I was realizing how I worked so hard to look perfect. Well I want to read Beths book. Thankfully for your endorsement. Again I’m 85 and just beginning to get it right.hahaha. Thanks Kirsten. So much more could be said. Wilma rabidoux Hudsonville.mi about three years CRC and a recovering Baptist.
This was just a delight to read, my brain is exploding in so many good ways. I had no idea there was a Calvinist tradition that “emphasized restoration, Shalom, and human flourishing”. Thank you for connecting all these dots! I’m eagerly awaiting my copy of Beth’s book from the library!
Nor did I know of the Calvinist tradition that “emphasized restoration, Shalom, and human flourishing.” Now I feel more comfortable about again embracing my Calvinistic roots as a feminist. Maybe, I just needed to realize I didn’t have to fit in a religious box either.
Mar 8, 2023·edited Mar 8, 2023Liked by Kristin Du Mez
Beautiful work - I'm not mentioning this for your endorsement :-) but 10 years ago I did some field research around the centrality of women in the evangelical church (industry) and even managed to get in published under the George Barna brand. It's called "The Resignation of Eve- What If Adam’s Rib Is No Longer Willing to Be the Church’s Backbone?" https://tinyurl.com/3thburu4 You might find some stories interesting and maybe helpful for your ongoing research. A central discovery was that if Evangelical women organized and together agreed to skip one Sunday morning Service they would suddenly be taken seriously and many male pastors "theology" of women would magically change overnight. Thank you for leading. This is fun to watch
Thank you - very curious if you find anything of interest- I interviewed women from a range of positions - Resigned FROM - Resigned TO - and RESIGNED up - sorry - this former pastor had to use some clumsy form of alliteration :-)
I appreciate your work very much. Your voice is essential in today's environment. I do, however, have issue with one thing you said in this article. When you wrote about people who would shun LGBTQ+ Christians and Christians who refuse to shun them until their son or daughter comes out and they then are relieved to find a place in the church for them, you write, "This is not hypocrisy, this is what it means to be human." I would argue that it is the very definition of hypocrisy, which is a hallmark of our humanity (and our fallen state). It is a minor issue, perhaps. However, I feel that the people who are the most vocal advocates of shunning those they deem to be sinners steeped in a deeper shade of sin than the rest of us are the most hypocritical.
Fair enough. I paused over this line, asking myself, but is this hypocrisy? I think I meant more "this can't just be dismissed as hypocrisy, there's more going on than that." But point taken.
Is changing one’s mind hypocrisy? If the shocked father turns from his LGBTQ+ shunning after the child comes out and becomes open and affirming of all, that’s not hypocrisy. If the father continues to shun LGBTO+ even after his child, that is hypocrisy of the rankest order (like the politician who keeps pushing anti-abortion laws even after compelling his mistress to have one).
I mean, really, wouldn’t we prefer that folks who hold destructive beliefs change their minds? 🤔 I didn’t see that in the post that prompted your reply.
The one thing I would love to add to people's thinking is the valid journey of study, meditation and prayer that leads that father to a different, more beautiful way of seeing the world that may be a more accurate perspective of the Scripture and the heart of Jesus.
Sadly, lots of us get stuck thinking our minds have completed the renewal Paul speaks of in Rom. 12. We need to start teaching courses like--Continued Change Throughout Life. That's the best part of getting older!
Mar 9, 2023·edited Mar 9, 2023Liked by Kristin Du Mez
I came here to say the same thing. I appreciate Kristin’s and Charles’ responses. This is hypocrisy *and* being human, and we do want people to become more open and affirming to all. We also need to acknowledge the tremendous damage done to the LGBTQ community by people who espouse homophobic beliefs until someone close to them comes out. And the tremendous damage done to non-believers by people who insist they adopt their Christian beliefs. It’s great for people to change, but we must also reckon with the abuse heaped on the LGBTQ and non-believer communities by Christians who hold these views.
Wow! This not only encourages me to read the book, but you’ve encouraged me toward Christ, who in his glory has proven time again that he can handle the mess—my mess—and who also intends to empower me by his Spirit to engage with others who desperately need to see him present and active in their mess, too. Thank you, my sister!
This is so well written and quite literally brought tears to my eyes at a few points because of how it so perfectly put words to the cries of my soul and the wrestling in my own mind over my faith and the messy uneasiness that just won't let me rest in the status quo of evangelicalism. I was at Baylor and just finished Beth's book and similarly found her story to be an encouragement that there is value and beauty in the nuance. It won't always be appreciated, but is the most honest expression of what faith is.
Every word resonates, but here’s the quote I need on my fridge...
“Sin has corrupted everything. Our relationships, our behaviors, our identities, and our understanding. We get things wrong, all the time. Maybe we’re especially prone to getting things wrong when we are most certain that we are getting things right.”
I was much more sure of myself 20 years ago. I think (hope) that means I’m growing up.
What you captured in this blog reflects so much of my own experience of grappling with "the nature of religious faith itself" - a grappling that is shaped by my own early faith formation in the Reformed tradition but rests in the freedom that comes from trusting the Spirit to lead me into new and life-giving comprehensions of that faith.
Your blog here reminds me of several years ago when doctors were trying to definitely diagnose a complex auto-immune disease I was suffering with. The "best" diagnosis for me didn't work that well because of some big differences between my symptoms and typical symptoms. The specialist deadpanned, "These darn autoimmune diseases have such nerve! How dare they not conform to the boxes we have created for them."
I had a similar conversation with a geneticist years ago--the neat medical categories are really often a myth.
Wow. Just wow. Loved every word of this blog. Your sound and thoughtful reflections in both Jesus and John Wayne and this post gives me courage to stand firm in my faith even when it seems to go against the Christian mainstream. Thank you for your good and encouraging work.
"Seems" is important here--what if we are in fact the Christian mainstream, but our voices don't always get platformed in the same way as the gatekeepers?
What a tremendous article. This quote sums it up so well. "Placing their trust in their own articulations of their own truths, they have taken upon themselves the ceaseless task of defending every last card they’ve propped up lest a single one be nudged out of place. Enter Beth Moore, whose understanding of her faith rests not on a stack of cards she’s assembled, but rather on her sense of the Spirit of a living God, a Spirit that blows in ways that sooner or later will dismantle every last man-made house of cards." Thank you!
Such a great discussion. Our tendency to think in black and white, in or out, all or nothing positions really does not foster nuanced conversations that may actually forge connections with each other. It takes way more energy and attention to live in the liminal/ grey spaces. Personally, I like the idea of not boxing myself in completely. I admire your ability to speak into those populations and spaces that get people (including me) thinking. Thank you
This is so well stated. Thank you! For many years I was a Calvinist. It was very important for me to be "right." First Moody, then TEDS, then the pastor of an urban church for 33 years. In the 90s I started reading Dallas Willard. His life and thought began to change me. The the growing arrogance of TGC, et al, just did me in. Finally the moral failings on the "top" pastors left me grieving deeply. Now, I am not a Calvinist. I am not a complementarian. And there are other things i am not. I am a committed follower of Jesus Christ and continue to learn of Him.
Just today I was realizing how I worked so hard to look perfect. Well I want to read Beths book. Thankfully for your endorsement. Again I’m 85 and just beginning to get it right.hahaha. Thanks Kirsten. So much more could be said. Wilma rabidoux Hudsonville.mi about three years CRC and a recovering Baptist.
This was just a delight to read, my brain is exploding in so many good ways. I had no idea there was a Calvinist tradition that “emphasized restoration, Shalom, and human flourishing”. Thank you for connecting all these dots! I’m eagerly awaiting my copy of Beth’s book from the library!
Nor did I know of the Calvinist tradition that “emphasized restoration, Shalom, and human flourishing.” Now I feel more comfortable about again embracing my Calvinistic roots as a feminist. Maybe, I just needed to realize I didn’t have to fit in a religious box either.
Beautiful work - I'm not mentioning this for your endorsement :-) but 10 years ago I did some field research around the centrality of women in the evangelical church (industry) and even managed to get in published under the George Barna brand. It's called "The Resignation of Eve- What If Adam’s Rib Is No Longer Willing to Be the Church’s Backbone?" https://tinyurl.com/3thburu4 You might find some stories interesting and maybe helpful for your ongoing research. A central discovery was that if Evangelical women organized and together agreed to skip one Sunday morning Service they would suddenly be taken seriously and many male pastors "theology" of women would magically change overnight. Thank you for leading. This is fun to watch
Fascinating, I will check this out!!
Thank you - very curious if you find anything of interest- I interviewed women from a range of positions - Resigned FROM - Resigned TO - and RESIGNED up - sorry - this former pastor had to use some clumsy form of alliteration :-)
I appreciate your work very much. Your voice is essential in today's environment. I do, however, have issue with one thing you said in this article. When you wrote about people who would shun LGBTQ+ Christians and Christians who refuse to shun them until their son or daughter comes out and they then are relieved to find a place in the church for them, you write, "This is not hypocrisy, this is what it means to be human." I would argue that it is the very definition of hypocrisy, which is a hallmark of our humanity (and our fallen state). It is a minor issue, perhaps. However, I feel that the people who are the most vocal advocates of shunning those they deem to be sinners steeped in a deeper shade of sin than the rest of us are the most hypocritical.
Fair enough. I paused over this line, asking myself, but is this hypocrisy? I think I meant more "this can't just be dismissed as hypocrisy, there's more going on than that." But point taken.
Is changing one’s mind hypocrisy? If the shocked father turns from his LGBTQ+ shunning after the child comes out and becomes open and affirming of all, that’s not hypocrisy. If the father continues to shun LGBTO+ even after his child, that is hypocrisy of the rankest order (like the politician who keeps pushing anti-abortion laws even after compelling his mistress to have one).
Right, yes, this is what I was getting at.
I mean, really, wouldn’t we prefer that folks who hold destructive beliefs change their minds? 🤔 I didn’t see that in the post that prompted your reply.
Charles--Thanks for commenting here.
The one thing I would love to add to people's thinking is the valid journey of study, meditation and prayer that leads that father to a different, more beautiful way of seeing the world that may be a more accurate perspective of the Scripture and the heart of Jesus.
Sadly, lots of us get stuck thinking our minds have completed the renewal Paul speaks of in Rom. 12. We need to start teaching courses like--Continued Change Throughout Life. That's the best part of getting older!
I came here to say the same thing. I appreciate Kristin’s and Charles’ responses. This is hypocrisy *and* being human, and we do want people to become more open and affirming to all. We also need to acknowledge the tremendous damage done to the LGBTQ community by people who espouse homophobic beliefs until someone close to them comes out. And the tremendous damage done to non-believers by people who insist they adopt their Christian beliefs. It’s great for people to change, but we must also reckon with the abuse heaped on the LGBTQ and non-believer communities by Christians who hold these views.
Wow! This not only encourages me to read the book, but you’ve encouraged me toward Christ, who in his glory has proven time again that he can handle the mess—my mess—and who also intends to empower me by his Spirit to engage with others who desperately need to see him present and active in their mess, too. Thank you, my sister!
This is so well written and quite literally brought tears to my eyes at a few points because of how it so perfectly put words to the cries of my soul and the wrestling in my own mind over my faith and the messy uneasiness that just won't let me rest in the status quo of evangelicalism. I was at Baylor and just finished Beth's book and similarly found her story to be an encouragement that there is value and beauty in the nuance. It won't always be appreciated, but is the most honest expression of what faith is.
Thank you for posting this on International Women's Day. Much to learn from your observations and spirit.
Wow! Ongoing thanks for your smarts!
Every word resonates, but here’s the quote I need on my fridge...
“Sin has corrupted everything. Our relationships, our behaviors, our identities, and our understanding. We get things wrong, all the time. Maybe we’re especially prone to getting things wrong when we are most certain that we are getting things right.”
I was much more sure of myself 20 years ago. I think (hope) that means I’m growing up.
Beth sounds intriguing (thanks to this piece), even for heathens like me...;-)
What you captured in this blog reflects so much of my own experience of grappling with "the nature of religious faith itself" - a grappling that is shaped by my own early faith formation in the Reformed tradition but rests in the freedom that comes from trusting the Spirit to lead me into new and life-giving comprehensions of that faith.