I've no academic background for the scholarly discussion. Found 'Jesus & John Wayne' very informative for your historical observations and insights.
On a related note, may we consider the extent to which the Obama-era Tea Party and/or MAGA "constitutionalism" proceeded from the original ideas of Locke, de Montesquieu, Hobbes, and Rousseau and on through Madison, et al? I expect interviews of participants at a gathering of Tea Party or MAGA believers would mention those philosophical underpinnings... rarely. I think a movement can build itself using (adopting/appropriating?) selected images & slogans without necessarily evolving directly from that prior movement, the symbols of which have been incorporated. Even when a current movement has a clear through line to a predecessor, it's possible that many current joiners do not, themselves, have that in their own history. Therefore the current culture may derive as much from the new joiners' beliefs & desires as from the "old school" underpinnings. Unlike a gradual evolution, the new influx can bring something altogether different into the culture. So in seeking to understand today's MAGA mindset, I wouldn't know that studying up on Locke or Rousseau would help too much
yes, this is an important corrective to the throughline! Also, those looking back to 17th century evangelicalism for the movement’s source tend to deny the racial and gendered power dynamics of that time, as historian Peter Choi was just pointing out to me earlier this week. But my other complaint about the throughline is that much of mainline Protestantism and Black Protestantism can also be traced back to the same sources. Just because evangelicals claim the name today doesn’t mean they’re the only inheritors or the tradition. In other words, an argument could be made that Hillary Clinton’s faith is every bit as much in the “long evangelical” tradition as Billy Graham’s.
Laura Field's "Furious Minds" was really interesting, at least for someone like me who's a noob in those spaces. A good look at some of the philosophical underpinnings of these poli sci guys and their influences.
That’s my life… I’m working the next 5 weekends straight. Last night I was too tired to do productive reading so I just surfed amazon looking for good books. But my big to read stack is still there looking at me.
"The primary question, then, isn’t which definition is “correct,” but rather which imaginings have more power to shape other people’s imaginings. When LifeWay decides you are no longer an evangelical, it matters. "
I found this statement very insightful. We are what we read. When entire groups of Christians are "shielded" from ideas by a publisher, one has to question their motives.
I think, once again, this is an example of the all too common case of someone not having actually read your book but deciding to talk about it as if said person had.
April. This summer we’re bringing manuscript to final proof. I’ll send it along to you once it gets there for your review. I narrowed my project to focus on the establishment evangelical story from a cultural perspective.
That’s actually a good time, if we still have a country and all that. There’s a glut of books coming out before the midterms. Mine wasn’t targeted to that, it just took me this long to finish it!
When I really got into the writing stage I revisited my proposal and outline and asked myself what will Kristin write about in her book, and then I did not write those things. That was the first step I took to narrow my project.
This post from you helps me see how indebted and too understated my manuscript is right now at crediting your influence on my revisionist look at the establishment story.
I am looking forward to seeing how class position intersects with all the rest of this in your description of formation of contemporary, especially American, evangelical culture. I learn from your work and commentary.
Enjoyed this article very much. I found Jesus and John Wayne compelling and gifted it to several friends. I’ve long questioned the existence of an international evangelical continuum (is this an appropriate phrase?), how to define its components and distinctives. To what extent can we legitimately speak of international evangelical culture? Having been a missionary in France working with the Federation des Églises Évangéliques Baptiste de France, and spent a little time at Regent’s Park College at Oxford with British scholars, I think culture, history, and liturgical practices play a far greater role than we realize in shaping unavoidable and necessary distinctions.
Thank you for your outstanding work Kristin Du Mez. I have learned a lot and I’m trying to unlearn some things that were unhealthy and not pass those things onto my kids. I will try to teach my kids a healthier understanding of Christianity. Your work along with other scholars helps me wrestle with the history and culture and implications of these things and better ways forward. So I just wanted to say thank you!
How & who defines evangelicalism matters— I’d nominate Willam Stell’s new Born Again Queer, on the definitively evangelical And gay-welcoming MCC movement as an important part of the conversation.
I’ve been wrestling for some time with questions about the social construction of race and identity, particularly around what was lost as many European immigrant groups were absorbed into “whiteness” and shed more particular ethnic identities, histories, and traditions.
Rereading these quotes from JJW made me wonder about the extent to which evangelical culture in the US came to occupy the space (vacuum?) left by the loss of Scottish, Irish, German, or other ethnic identities, offering a sense of inherited belonging and moral community.
Having been raised deep in Southern Baptist culture, I’m also thinking about how that might explain why challenges to evangelicalism can feel, for so many friends and family members, like something far deeper than disagreement over beliefs, more like an attack on individual and collective identity.
Yes, long ago I read Albion’s Seed—if you haven’t read it, read the section in Appalachia. Then read Darren Dochuk’s From Bible Belt to Sunbelt to pick up this thread.
This is an interesting idea. I am second generation Scot and Scots-Irish on both sides and was raised (northern) Presbyterian. In my family denominational affiliation is as much an ethnic affiliation as much as a spiritual one. This is also absolutely the case in the Great Plains as German, Norwegian, Swedish, and other immigrant descendants each adhering to their own denominations.
thank you! i feel like i've read the summary notes of a grad seminar on historiography and the history of Amer. evangelicalism that updates me from the last one i took — gasp — over 50 years ago. from this perspective i find that everything changes and stays the same, or as historians have taught me over and over and over, "it's complicated."
I found many useful distinctions in your defense. I am of the opinion that the term "evangelicalism" has ceased to be useful. Orwell talks about dead metaphors. The same could be said, I think, of theological definitions of modernism, liberalism, evangelicalism. As e.e. cummings says about poetry and advertising:
i do however protest, anent the un
-spontaneous and otherwise scented merde which
greets one (Everywhere Why) as divine poesy per
that and this radically defunct periodical. i would
suggest that certain ideas gestures
rhymes, like Gillette Razor Blades
having been used and reused
to the mystical moment of dullness emphatically are
Not To Be Resharpened.
I am not gifted enough to come up with a more useful term, however.
I would hold that there is no more an absolute theological definition of evangelical than there is of Christian. I say this as someone who, if asked, would state my religious beliefs as Christian. Many others would dispute my declaration, instead concluding that I am a CINO, Christian in name only, because I don’t share their theology.
As an organizational psychologist, I use the PRRI Five Items definition that has durability in survey analyses:
• "The U.S. government should declare America a Christian nation."
• "U.S. laws should be based on Christian values."
• "If the U.S. moves away from our Christian foundations, we will not have a country anymore."
• "Being Christian is an important part of being truly American."
• "God has called Christians to exercise dominion over all areas of American society."
I find these useful to cut across self-definition issues & get to other attitudinal factors such as authoritarianism.
Limited to the abstract of the article in question, I must suspect that author wishes to develop a straw-person to knock down to elevate their argument.
As an aside, I am definitely not an Evangelical according to the Bebbington quadrilateral:
• Biblical: I’m more skeptical of what at times seems to be fan-fiction attributed to Jesus & the apostles.
• Crucicentric: The central point I see in Christianity is taking care of your neighbor so God’s will might be done on earth.
• Conversionistic: Given those who’ve taken care of their neighbors even though they don’t profess faith in Jesus, I’m pluralistic.
• Activism: But primarily social reform to aid my neighbors who are welcome to join my faith community but it’s not mandatory on either of us.
Full Disclosure: my faith community does have evangelical in its name but probably would be noted as EINO by “true” evangelicals.
I am so sorry Kristin. I listen to you often with your friends on The Convocation Unscripted. Your hearts wanting goodness for all. There is a commitment in our current culture to the false. And it is taken to extremes. The confusing part is why??? I appreciate your courage to bring truth and goodness and keep confronting darkness. You are doing good work.
I've no academic background for the scholarly discussion. Found 'Jesus & John Wayne' very informative for your historical observations and insights.
On a related note, may we consider the extent to which the Obama-era Tea Party and/or MAGA "constitutionalism" proceeded from the original ideas of Locke, de Montesquieu, Hobbes, and Rousseau and on through Madison, et al? I expect interviews of participants at a gathering of Tea Party or MAGA believers would mention those philosophical underpinnings... rarely. I think a movement can build itself using (adopting/appropriating?) selected images & slogans without necessarily evolving directly from that prior movement, the symbols of which have been incorporated. Even when a current movement has a clear through line to a predecessor, it's possible that many current joiners do not, themselves, have that in their own history. Therefore the current culture may derive as much from the new joiners' beliefs & desires as from the "old school" underpinnings. Unlike a gradual evolution, the new influx can bring something altogether different into the culture. So in seeking to understand today's MAGA mindset, I wouldn't know that studying up on Locke or Rousseau would help too much
yes, this is an important corrective to the throughline! Also, those looking back to 17th century evangelicalism for the movement’s source tend to deny the racial and gendered power dynamics of that time, as historian Peter Choi was just pointing out to me earlier this week. But my other complaint about the throughline is that much of mainline Protestantism and Black Protestantism can also be traced back to the same sources. Just because evangelicals claim the name today doesn’t mean they’re the only inheritors or the tradition. In other words, an argument could be made that Hillary Clinton’s faith is every bit as much in the “long evangelical” tradition as Billy Graham’s.
Laura Field's "Furious Minds" was really interesting, at least for someone like me who's a noob in those spaces. A good look at some of the philosophical underpinnings of these poli sci guys and their influences.
I keep meaning to write about that book. I have a huge stack here that I’ve read but so little time…
That’s my life… I’m working the next 5 weekends straight. Last night I was too tired to do productive reading so I just surfed amazon looking for good books. But my big to read stack is still there looking at me.
Charles - thank you for your recommendation. I see my library can order for me!
“the two complement each other, so to speak.” 💀 Not only are you a top-notch researcher, but your writing skills… 💯🎯 Nicely done.
"The primary question, then, isn’t which definition is “correct,” but rather which imaginings have more power to shape other people’s imaginings. When LifeWay decides you are no longer an evangelical, it matters. "
I found this statement very insightful. We are what we read. When entire groups of Christians are "shielded" from ideas by a publisher, one has to question their motives.
I think, once again, this is an example of the all too common case of someone not having actually read your book but deciding to talk about it as if said person had.
That’s standard over on Twitter, but I expect more from an academic journal!
*insert Ryan Reynolds nods head slowly gif here
I wish our books released at the same time because they are going to be a perfect complement to one another.
when does yours release?
April. This summer we’re bringing manuscript to final proof. I’ll send it along to you once it gets there for your review. I narrowed my project to focus on the establishment evangelical story from a cultural perspective.
That’s actually a good time, if we still have a country and all that. There’s a glut of books coming out before the midterms. Mine wasn’t targeted to that, it just took me this long to finish it!
When I really got into the writing stage I revisited my proposal and outline and asked myself what will Kristin write about in her book, and then I did not write those things. That was the first step I took to narrow my project.
This post from you helps me see how indebted and too understated my manuscript is right now at crediting your influence on my revisionist look at the establishment story.
I am looking forward to seeing how class position intersects with all the rest of this in your description of formation of contemporary, especially American, evangelical culture. I learn from your work and commentary.
Enjoyed this article very much. I found Jesus and John Wayne compelling and gifted it to several friends. I’ve long questioned the existence of an international evangelical continuum (is this an appropriate phrase?), how to define its components and distinctives. To what extent can we legitimately speak of international evangelical culture? Having been a missionary in France working with the Federation des Églises Évangéliques Baptiste de France, and spent a little time at Regent’s Park College at Oxford with British scholars, I think culture, history, and liturgical practices play a far greater role than we realize in shaping unavoidable and necessary distinctions.
This is confirmed by an interesting recent episode of Sons of Patriarchy. Turns out European evangelicalism is often quite different...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DH9pNAoAvY0
Thank you for your outstanding work Kristin Du Mez. I have learned a lot and I’m trying to unlearn some things that were unhealthy and not pass those things onto my kids. I will try to teach my kids a healthier understanding of Christianity. Your work along with other scholars helps me wrestle with the history and culture and implications of these things and better ways forward. So I just wanted to say thank you!
Thank you, this is very kind of you to say.
How & who defines evangelicalism matters— I’d nominate Willam Stell’s new Born Again Queer, on the definitively evangelical And gay-welcoming MCC movement as an important part of the conversation.
https://press.princeton.edu/books/hardcover/9780691268941/born-again-queer?srsltid=AfmBOoofBx9oI9yNpGs81_4FqmJU15SlDuY5t1q0jiYNJUcwXJyGFQh9
On my list of books to write about here!
Thank you
I’ve been wrestling for some time with questions about the social construction of race and identity, particularly around what was lost as many European immigrant groups were absorbed into “whiteness” and shed more particular ethnic identities, histories, and traditions.
Rereading these quotes from JJW made me wonder about the extent to which evangelical culture in the US came to occupy the space (vacuum?) left by the loss of Scottish, Irish, German, or other ethnic identities, offering a sense of inherited belonging and moral community.
Having been raised deep in Southern Baptist culture, I’m also thinking about how that might explain why challenges to evangelicalism can feel, for so many friends and family members, like something far deeper than disagreement over beliefs, more like an attack on individual and collective identity.
Yes, long ago I read Albion’s Seed—if you haven’t read it, read the section in Appalachia. Then read Darren Dochuk’s From Bible Belt to Sunbelt to pick up this thread.
This is an interesting idea. I am second generation Scot and Scots-Irish on both sides and was raised (northern) Presbyterian. In my family denominational affiliation is as much an ethnic affiliation as much as a spiritual one. This is also absolutely the case in the Great Plains as German, Norwegian, Swedish, and other immigrant descendants each adhering to their own denominations.
thank you! i feel like i've read the summary notes of a grad seminar on historiography and the history of Amer. evangelicalism that updates me from the last one i took — gasp — over 50 years ago. from this perspective i find that everything changes and stays the same, or as historians have taught me over and over and over, "it's complicated."
Complementarian books = *chef's kiss!
LOL yes, that was a very nice touch! :)
I found many useful distinctions in your defense. I am of the opinion that the term "evangelicalism" has ceased to be useful. Orwell talks about dead metaphors. The same could be said, I think, of theological definitions of modernism, liberalism, evangelicalism. As e.e. cummings says about poetry and advertising:
i do however protest, anent the un
-spontaneous and otherwise scented merde which
greets one (Everywhere Why) as divine poesy per
that and this radically defunct periodical. i would
suggest that certain ideas gestures
rhymes, like Gillette Razor Blades
having been used and reused
to the mystical moment of dullness emphatically are
Not To Be Resharpened.
I am not gifted enough to come up with a more useful term, however.
I would hold that there is no more an absolute theological definition of evangelical than there is of Christian. I say this as someone who, if asked, would state my religious beliefs as Christian. Many others would dispute my declaration, instead concluding that I am a CINO, Christian in name only, because I don’t share their theology.
As an organizational psychologist, I use the PRRI Five Items definition that has durability in survey analyses:
• "The U.S. government should declare America a Christian nation."
• "U.S. laws should be based on Christian values."
• "If the U.S. moves away from our Christian foundations, we will not have a country anymore."
• "Being Christian is an important part of being truly American."
• "God has called Christians to exercise dominion over all areas of American society."
I find these useful to cut across self-definition issues & get to other attitudinal factors such as authoritarianism.
Limited to the abstract of the article in question, I must suspect that author wishes to develop a straw-person to knock down to elevate their argument.
As an aside, I am definitely not an Evangelical according to the Bebbington quadrilateral:
• Biblical: I’m more skeptical of what at times seems to be fan-fiction attributed to Jesus & the apostles.
• Crucicentric: The central point I see in Christianity is taking care of your neighbor so God’s will might be done on earth.
• Conversionistic: Given those who’ve taken care of their neighbors even though they don’t profess faith in Jesus, I’m pluralistic.
• Activism: But primarily social reform to aid my neighbors who are welcome to join my faith community but it’s not mandatory on either of us.
Full Disclosure: my faith community does have evangelical in its name but probably would be noted as EINO by “true” evangelicals.
I am so sorry Kristin. I listen to you often with your friends on The Convocation Unscripted. Your hearts wanting goodness for all. There is a commitment in our current culture to the false. And it is taken to extremes. The confusing part is why??? I appreciate your courage to bring truth and goodness and keep confronting darkness. You are doing good work.
I just wanted you to know that I got the humor of your last paragraph IMMEDIATELY! Well done … you and me. 😊