Ali's takedown was so good, I was cheering. Wilson was visibly squirming as his time-honored plausible deniability didn't fool these guys. Turns out his fiefdom only goes so far, and if Hegseth falls, then I hope he does, too.
Plausible deniability. Exactly. Writing about him was so difficult because of the way he always speaks out of both sides of his mouths, claims to be joking, etc. like he’s above speaking truth.
Well, reading this before bed, I just hope I don’t dream of Doug Wilson without clothes.
One thing that bothers me about Doug is the way he intentionally communicates disrespect to those who he disagrees with. From his “listen here Skippy” to that ridiculous music behind that Toby Sumpter documentary, he’s just a pompous SOB. And sadly I think it’s that cocksure braggadocio that makes an attractive leader for many mediocre men - including a number of my old church friends.
I should try to watch the whole thing tomorrow if I have time.
Listened driving in to work. 😱😱. That absolute silence after his socialism joke - no Joe Rigney around to clap… And Tia Levings’s slug quote.
Still I’m a little haunted by that quote from Keri Ladner’s conclusion - what if this is who we WANT to be? Masters of small worlds content to let oligarchs play as long as we have our own little fiefdoms…
Between 2010 and 2012, I was teaching writing at Kuyper College in Grand Rapids, my first full-time teaching position (with beloved faculty and students whom I still call friends). I had just graduated from my MFA program, had published a couple reflective pieces with Comment and some other Reformed publishers, and had done my MFA at Seattle Pacific. In other words, I was fledgling. And one day, I received a box of Wilson's rhetoric books, addressed to me specifically, at my Kuyper office. I had initiated no contact, had no connections with him, and certainly wasn't big or hip enough to merit any attention. And maybe that was exactly what he wanted. I....threw them away.
Seeing Wilson diminished was like seeing the giant shadow revealed to be nothing more than a rat in a session of EMDR. I’ve been afraid of major networks platforming this monster but you’re so right: removed from context he can control, he falls apart. His hands fidget, he reaches for water, he can’t interrupt, his face pales. He’s just a pasty old bully who bosses around women, children, and damaged manboys. His grandpa schtick fails to land. No one laughs at his jokes. The truth is, he doesn’t get off on humiliation, and I worry about the unfortunate ones in his path as he licks his sulking wounds. But as a survivor of his “ministry” it’s healing part of me to watch this take down on repeat. Thank you for being so quick with your piece.
This! I had the same thought. And his mic and headphones diminished him rather than making him look important. Trained journalists out researched and articulated too. Great piece Kristin!
Wow I am so glad you shared this interview. Never once watched Piers Morgan but this was so satisfying watching Miller and Ali take Wilson down a peg is brilliant. Sadly I don’t think Doug is the type of person who has any introspection
Andy Borowitz did a comparison of quotes by the two world leaders. You can decide for yourself which one has a better theological understanding of the Bible keeping in mind I John 4:1
"Dear friends, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God, because many false prophets have gone out into the world."
------------------------
Pope Leo: “When the light of forgiveness succeeds in filtering through the deepest crevices of the heart, we understand that it is never futile. Even if the other does not accept it, even if it seems to be in vain, forgiveness frees those who give it: It dispels resentment, it restores peace, it returns us to ourselves.”
Trump: “I hate my opponent and I don’t want the best for them.”
Pope Leo: “Even today, there are many settings in which the Christian faith is considered absurd, meant for the weak and unintelligent. Settings where other securities are preferred, like technology, money, success, power or pleasure.”
Trump: “Part of the beauty of me is that I’m very rich.”
Pope Leo: “The Church, like a mother, accompanies those who are walking. Where the world sees threats, she sees children; where walls are built, she builds bridges.”
Trump: “I will build a great, great wall on our southern border, and I will make Mexico pay for that wall.”
Pope Leo: “Peace is built in the heart and from the heart, by eliminating pride and vindictiveness and carefully choosing our words.”
Trump: “When people wrong you, go after those people, because it is a good feeling and because other people will see you doing it. I always get even.”
Pope Leo: “Religious experience is an essential dimension of the human person.”
Trump: “When I go to church and when I drink my little wine and have my little cracker, I guess that is a form of forgiveness.”
Pope Leo: “Our neighbors are not first our enemies… but other men and women with whom we can speak.”
Trump: “They’re not just illegal aliens, honestly, they’re monsters. These are savage monsters.”
Pope Leo: “Christ, King of Peace, cries out again from his cross: God is love! Have mercy! Lay down your weapons!”
Trump: “A whole civilization will die tonight, never to be brought back again.”
Pope Leo: “The world is being ravaged by a handful of tyrants.”
Trump: “Putin, very smart.”
“President Xi is a brilliant man.”
“How smart is Kim Jong Un? Top of the line… really smart.”
Pope Leo: “The Almighty will not be outdone in generosity to those who serve the people most in need: the greater the love for the poor, the greater the reward from God.”
Trump: “It’s not possible for us to take care of day care, Medicaid, Medicare—all these individual things.”
Pope Leo: “There is no shortage of theories attempting to justify the present state of affairs or to explain that economic thinking requires us to wait for invisible market forces to resolve everything.”
Trump: “We had the largest gain in the stock market in history on every single category last week.”
Pope Leo: “Peace is built in the heart and from the heart, by eliminating pride and vindictiveness and carefully choosing our words.”
Trump: “Nobody’s ever been more successful than me.”
Pope Leo: “Blessed are the peacemakers! But woe to those who manipulate religion and the very name of God for their own military, economic and political gain, dragging that which is sacred into darkness and filth.”
Trump: “Remember when I gave Iran ten days to MAKE A DEAL or OPEN UP THE HORMUZ STRAIT. Time is running out - 48 hours before all Hell will reign down on them. Glory be to GOD!”
Pope Leo: “God loves us, God loves you all, and evil will not prevail!”
Trump: “I think God is very proud of the job I’ve done.”
Tim is a lapsed catholic and is already impatient with that BS. He had Jane Coaston on his show on the 10th and she knows her theology. They shared a rant about the kind of rubbish Hegseth spouts.
No, Tim and Sarah haven’t really seen much of Wilson’s garbage. Sorry- That’s what I view it as being, the same is true of Webbon, Hegseth, and others.
I agree. I know Kristin is swamped with interviews right now. (Thank goodness her book edits are done!).
Those outside the white Evangelical world are unaware of the increasingly powerful menagerie of “dirt bags” gaining prominence. They have millions of followers.
I met Joel Webbon once in San Diego. He’s my daughter’s age. At that time, he was running a church, but was self-taught in theology. I guess he’s attended Wilson’s seminary in ID since then.
At the time, Webbon gave off a slimy vibe. I remember the hair on the back of my neck stood on edge.
What's a lapsed Catholic? I'm wondering bc I was raised Catholic: baptized, first communion, confirmation, Catholic college...but have come to disagree with some of their doctrines and don't feel I belong there anymore. I have maintained faith in Christ, studied Scripture deeply, been active in Presbyterian and Methodist churches, never been excommunicated...is it once a Catholic, always a Catholic?
It is once a Catholic, know you would be disfellowshiped in 90% of Catholic congregations for being a publicly gay man and haven't yet discovered the Episcopal, PCUSA, UCC or ELCA church nearest you that will not care a flying fig about who you sleep with but has enough liturgy to feel like home.
This is exactly what I thought. When we’ve needed Christian leaders to step up to the plate, they are nowhere to be found. With only a few exceptions. Too often survivors step in in their absence. Those who do speak up get pummeled, and those with power sit quietly by.
Wilson has been on my radar since the early 2000s and my time in the orbit, and part of, the Boars Head Tavern. We got in some sparring matches with him and always viewed him ultimately as a fraud. Wilson was always a cause for alarm, and I watched him build his little empire. He is nothing but a blowhard who appeals to his own authority as God-given and therefore legitimate. By his standards, I'm a faith leader as well; I just don't have a congregational network of yes men and subservient women at my disposal. He's a joke... a serious joke, but a joke nonetheless. The more people just say no to this kind of weaponisation of stupidity, the better off we will all be.
The only way men like Doug have any power is to create a religious bubble and make himself the leader who has no accountability. The “nondenominational mega churches” are using the same playbook. The patriarchal masculine bro energy appeals to the men like Pete who see a path to gain more power. The intense indoctrination and brain washing of women and children are essential to Doug’s “regime”. Once he steps out of the bubble, his harmful rhetoric is on full display and there’s no defense. Basic logic, morals, ethics that humans live by cause such cognitive dissonance, he looks like an emperor with no clothes. His only response to laugh and attempt to act condescending to the other panel members who quite effectively tear apart his nonsensical defense of DT and this war. Hopefully he keeps accepting debates like this - as his ego will compel him to - which will continue to unveil how harmful and abusive his “theology” is for humans - especially women and children. People aren’t stupid like he thinks they are. They know fake Christianity when they see it.
Nothing exposes a pocket tyrant faster than sunlight and follow-up questions. These men sound invincible only inside their own little kingdoms, where everyone nods, laughs on cue, and calls domination “discipleship.” Then they hit a real stage and suddenly the holy war cosplay starts looking like exactly what it is. A frightened man using God-language as body armor for his lust for control. False prophets always look taller in their own mirror.
Wow. Tim Miller's reply was perfect. It matters not how long someone has been "performing " as a pastor if everything they preach is in direct opposition to the teaching and example of Jesus.
So glad you made us aware of this edition. I would never tune into Piers Morgan otherwise. I adore Tim Miller and seeing him air quote “Pastor” and justify it by telling Doug he would recognize his credentials when he stopped spewing hate was alone worth the time. Bravo Tim and Wajahat!!
Ali's takedown was so good, I was cheering. Wilson was visibly squirming as his time-honored plausible deniability didn't fool these guys. Turns out his fiefdom only goes so far, and if Hegseth falls, then I hope he does, too.
Plausible deniability. Exactly. Writing about him was so difficult because of the way he always speaks out of both sides of his mouths, claims to be joking, etc. like he’s above speaking truth.
Proverbs 26:18,19 Like a madman who throws firebrands, arrows, and death, Is the man who deceives his neighbor, And says, “I was only joking!”
Yes!
Well, reading this before bed, I just hope I don’t dream of Doug Wilson without clothes.
One thing that bothers me about Doug is the way he intentionally communicates disrespect to those who he disagrees with. From his “listen here Skippy” to that ridiculous music behind that Toby Sumpter documentary, he’s just a pompous SOB. And sadly I think it’s that cocksure braggadocio that makes an attractive leader for many mediocre men - including a number of my old church friends.
I should try to watch the whole thing tomorrow if I have time.
Which is why this absolutely disaster is so important. Anyone who watches this will never see him the same way again.
Listened driving in to work. 😱😱. That absolute silence after his socialism joke - no Joe Rigney around to clap… And Tia Levings’s slug quote.
Still I’m a little haunted by that quote from Keri Ladner’s conclusion - what if this is who we WANT to be? Masters of small worlds content to let oligarchs play as long as we have our own little fiefdoms…
I wonder...I think many are so deceived, they will praise this performance.
Between 2010 and 2012, I was teaching writing at Kuyper College in Grand Rapids, my first full-time teaching position (with beloved faculty and students whom I still call friends). I had just graduated from my MFA program, had published a couple reflective pieces with Comment and some other Reformed publishers, and had done my MFA at Seattle Pacific. In other words, I was fledgling. And one day, I received a box of Wilson's rhetoric books, addressed to me specifically, at my Kuyper office. I had initiated no contact, had no connections with him, and certainly wasn't big or hip enough to merit any attention. And maybe that was exactly what he wanted. I....threw them away.
Seeing Wilson diminished was like seeing the giant shadow revealed to be nothing more than a rat in a session of EMDR. I’ve been afraid of major networks platforming this monster but you’re so right: removed from context he can control, he falls apart. His hands fidget, he reaches for water, he can’t interrupt, his face pales. He’s just a pasty old bully who bosses around women, children, and damaged manboys. His grandpa schtick fails to land. No one laughs at his jokes. The truth is, he doesn’t get off on humiliation, and I worry about the unfortunate ones in his path as he licks his sulking wounds. But as a survivor of his “ministry” it’s healing part of me to watch this take down on repeat. Thank you for being so quick with your piece.
Yes, the water moment felt very Marco Rubio, didn’t it?
This! I had the same thought. And his mic and headphones diminished him rather than making him look important. Trained journalists out researched and articulated too. Great piece Kristin!
Wow I am so glad you shared this interview. Never once watched Piers Morgan but this was so satisfying watching Miller and Ali take Wilson down a peg is brilliant. Sadly I don’t think Doug is the type of person who has any introspection
I agree
Pardon all my grammar errors from moving too quickly!
Andy Borowitz did a comparison of quotes by the two world leaders. You can decide for yourself which one has a better theological understanding of the Bible keeping in mind I John 4:1
"Dear friends, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God, because many false prophets have gone out into the world."
------------------------
Pope Leo: “When the light of forgiveness succeeds in filtering through the deepest crevices of the heart, we understand that it is never futile. Even if the other does not accept it, even if it seems to be in vain, forgiveness frees those who give it: It dispels resentment, it restores peace, it returns us to ourselves.”
Trump: “I hate my opponent and I don’t want the best for them.”
Pope Leo: “Even today, there are many settings in which the Christian faith is considered absurd, meant for the weak and unintelligent. Settings where other securities are preferred, like technology, money, success, power or pleasure.”
Trump: “Part of the beauty of me is that I’m very rich.”
Pope Leo: “The Church, like a mother, accompanies those who are walking. Where the world sees threats, she sees children; where walls are built, she builds bridges.”
Trump: “I will build a great, great wall on our southern border, and I will make Mexico pay for that wall.”
Pope Leo: “Peace is built in the heart and from the heart, by eliminating pride and vindictiveness and carefully choosing our words.”
Trump: “When people wrong you, go after those people, because it is a good feeling and because other people will see you doing it. I always get even.”
Pope Leo: “Religious experience is an essential dimension of the human person.”
Trump: “When I go to church and when I drink my little wine and have my little cracker, I guess that is a form of forgiveness.”
Pope Leo: “Our neighbors are not first our enemies… but other men and women with whom we can speak.”
Trump: “They’re not just illegal aliens, honestly, they’re monsters. These are savage monsters.”
Pope Leo: “Christ, King of Peace, cries out again from his cross: God is love! Have mercy! Lay down your weapons!”
Trump: “A whole civilization will die tonight, never to be brought back again.”
Pope Leo: “The world is being ravaged by a handful of tyrants.”
Trump: “Putin, very smart.”
“President Xi is a brilliant man.”
“How smart is Kim Jong Un? Top of the line… really smart.”
Pope Leo: “The Almighty will not be outdone in generosity to those who serve the people most in need: the greater the love for the poor, the greater the reward from God.”
Trump: “It’s not possible for us to take care of day care, Medicaid, Medicare—all these individual things.”
Pope Leo: “There is no shortage of theories attempting to justify the present state of affairs or to explain that economic thinking requires us to wait for invisible market forces to resolve everything.”
Trump: “We had the largest gain in the stock market in history on every single category last week.”
Pope Leo: “Peace is built in the heart and from the heart, by eliminating pride and vindictiveness and carefully choosing our words.”
Trump: “Nobody’s ever been more successful than me.”
Pope Leo: “Blessed are the peacemakers! But woe to those who manipulate religion and the very name of God for their own military, economic and political gain, dragging that which is sacred into darkness and filth.”
Trump: “Remember when I gave Iran ten days to MAKE A DEAL or OPEN UP THE HORMUZ STRAIT. Time is running out - 48 hours before all Hell will reign down on them. Glory be to GOD!”
Pope Leo: “God loves us, God loves you all, and evil will not prevail!”
Trump: “I think God is very proud of the job I’ve done.”
I know the one I beleive. Do you?
Yes!!!
Tim is a lapsed catholic and is already impatient with that BS. He had Jane Coaston on his show on the 10th and she knows her theology. They shared a rant about the kind of rubbish Hegseth spouts.
yes, and he didn’t seem all too familiar with Wilson’s theology if I recall.
No, Tim and Sarah haven’t really seen much of Wilson’s garbage. Sorry- That’s what I view it as being, the same is true of Webbon, Hegseth, and others.
Yeah I'd say Tim knows a fair amount in general but needs translators the further toward Evangelicals he gets.
You should be on his show when the book releases Kristen! It's Charlie Sykes's former Bulwark flagship. I'm positive it'll come up.
I agree. I know Kristin is swamped with interviews right now. (Thank goodness her book edits are done!).
Those outside the white Evangelical world are unaware of the increasingly powerful menagerie of “dirt bags” gaining prominence. They have millions of followers.
I met Joel Webbon once in San Diego. He’s my daughter’s age. At that time, he was running a church, but was self-taught in theology. I guess he’s attended Wilson’s seminary in ID since then.
At the time, Webbon gave off a slimy vibe. I remember the hair on the back of my neck stood on edge.
He was comical and frightening at the same time.
I think Miller has other demons to exorcise ... :-)
What's a lapsed Catholic? I'm wondering bc I was raised Catholic: baptized, first communion, confirmation, Catholic college...but have come to disagree with some of their doctrines and don't feel I belong there anymore. I have maintained faith in Christ, studied Scripture deeply, been active in Presbyterian and Methodist churches, never been excommunicated...is it once a Catholic, always a Catholic?
Tim is raising a daughter with his husband and doesn't practice any longer.
It is once a Catholic, know you would be disfellowshiped in 90% of Catholic congregations for being a publicly gay man and haven't yet discovered the Episcopal, PCUSA, UCC or ELCA church nearest you that will not care a flying fig about who you sleep with but has enough liturgy to feel like home.
When I see Doug Wilson, I am reminded of SBC's Albert Mohler Jr., Paige Patterson, and Paul Pressler. Bad witness.
That last line was my favorite part of the whole interview. “That’s for you, Pastor Wilson.” If only more Christian leaders would be so bold.
This is exactly what I thought. When we’ve needed Christian leaders to step up to the plate, they are nowhere to be found. With only a few exceptions. Too often survivors step in in their absence. Those who do speak up get pummeled, and those with power sit quietly by.
As you know, I think it’s because they don’t want to lose their power. They’d rather let false teachers thrive and lie than possibly lose any power. 😭
Wilson has been on my radar since the early 2000s and my time in the orbit, and part of, the Boars Head Tavern. We got in some sparring matches with him and always viewed him ultimately as a fraud. Wilson was always a cause for alarm, and I watched him build his little empire. He is nothing but a blowhard who appeals to his own authority as God-given and therefore legitimate. By his standards, I'm a faith leader as well; I just don't have a congregational network of yes men and subservient women at my disposal. He's a joke... a serious joke, but a joke nonetheless. The more people just say no to this kind of weaponisation of stupidity, the better off we will all be.
Yes to all this.
The only way men like Doug have any power is to create a religious bubble and make himself the leader who has no accountability. The “nondenominational mega churches” are using the same playbook. The patriarchal masculine bro energy appeals to the men like Pete who see a path to gain more power. The intense indoctrination and brain washing of women and children are essential to Doug’s “regime”. Once he steps out of the bubble, his harmful rhetoric is on full display and there’s no defense. Basic logic, morals, ethics that humans live by cause such cognitive dissonance, he looks like an emperor with no clothes. His only response to laugh and attempt to act condescending to the other panel members who quite effectively tear apart his nonsensical defense of DT and this war. Hopefully he keeps accepting debates like this - as his ego will compel him to - which will continue to unveil how harmful and abusive his “theology” is for humans - especially women and children. People aren’t stupid like he thinks they are. They know fake Christianity when they see it.
Nothing exposes a pocket tyrant faster than sunlight and follow-up questions. These men sound invincible only inside their own little kingdoms, where everyone nods, laughs on cue, and calls domination “discipleship.” Then they hit a real stage and suddenly the holy war cosplay starts looking like exactly what it is. A frightened man using God-language as body armor for his lust for control. False prophets always look taller in their own mirror.
So well said.
Wow. Tim Miller's reply was perfect. It matters not how long someone has been "performing " as a pastor if everything they preach is in direct opposition to the teaching and example of Jesus.
So glad you made us aware of this edition. I would never tune into Piers Morgan otherwise. I adore Tim Miller and seeing him air quote “Pastor” and justify it by telling Doug he would recognize his credentials when he stopped spewing hate was alone worth the time. Bravo Tim and Wajahat!!
You gotta love Wajahat Ali.
Totally. Have been catching Waj now and then, mostly with HCRichardson, thinking I may need to become a paid subscriber - he's worth it.
Thank you. this was timely for sure. Great panel and nice to see him stutter and stammer.